9th Circuit Open Thread
Are you ready to rumble? C-SPAN is airing the battle in San Francisco, beginning at 10 am PST.
Three judges from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals will hear arguments this morning on whether Prop. 8 is constitutional.
The first hurdle will be for the proponents of the ballot measure to explain to the court how they even have standing to appeal district judge Vaughn Walker’s August 4 decision striking down Prop. 8, seeing as how the named defendant, the Guvernator, and AG/soon to be Governor Moonbeam refused to appeal the decision.
The three judge panel consists of the liberal senior judge Stephen Reinhardt (Carter appointee), Michael Hawkins (Clinton appointee), Randy Smith (W appointee). Keep your attention on Judge Hawkins, as the staunchly liberal Reinhardt and conservative Smith are pretty much assumed to fall on each side of the issue. Last week the proponents of Prop. 8 asked Reinhardt to recuse himself from the case because his wife, Ramona Ripston, is the retiring Executive Director of the ACLU of Southern California. Reinhardt said no. Notably, the Prop. 8 challengers did not ask Smith to recuse himself from the case because he and his wife are Mormons.
Whatever decision the panel makes will queue up for likely review by SCOTUS. Some legal analysts say the panel may limit their ruling to the standing issue, as if they rule the proponents have no standing to defend the law, this would let Walker’s ruling hold, yet put the constitutional analysis off to another day. Personally, I don’t think Reinhardt’s the type to wimp out on a technicality. What say you, Stinque Legal Eagles?
So have at it in the thread, anyone who’s watching. Unfortunately, I will only be able to join you after the fact.
[LA Times]
At this very moment, the pro Prop 8 legal team is strapping on their Village People gear and heading to the courthouse.
Standing is a threshold issue, so Reinhardt won’t create it just to get to the issue … right?
Remix for the Senate vote on DADT: “We can’t all marry Elaine Chao.”
Haters have a problem with lack of standing. Getting hammered now.
Imperial County? GMAFB.
Who’s the asshole?
@blogenfreude: Judge or lawyer?
@Dodgerblue: Guy on the left side of the bench – nasty little man.
David Boies getting a mild hosing now.
Reinhardt is worried about a conservative governor not enforcing a progressive initiative measure.
Justice Randy talks to the ceiling a lot …
Boies is on the ropes.
@Dodgerblue: I know many find Andrew Sullivan insufferable, but his framing of same-sex marriage as an inherently logical extension and expression of the conservative approach to family is really brilliant.
@Dodgerblue: judicial can kicked down road here?
@blogenfreude: Let’s hope not.
@mellbell: Agree. Once the standing underbrush is cleared, maybe we’ll hear that discussed.
Coming late to the scene. FRCP 65? What’s Reihnhardt’s concern?
@JNOV: The old boys are taking a pee break. Reinhardt and the others caught Boies in a bit of a contradiction as to whether the local County clerks had to obey Judge Walker’s injunction. One would think the answer is “yes,” but then wouldn’t they have a direct, personal interest in the case and thus standing?
This guy the Mormons hired is slimy.
@blogenfreude: “The name of marriage is the institution.” Huh?
@Dodgerblue: Ah. Are the clerks challenging the injunction? I saw Boies say that the injunction was limited and excluded them after dude on the left was like, “The purpose of the clerk is only ministerial” think that what he said. Accents! Ugh. I read the rule, and it seems that the clerks could have standing. I’m lost in the sauce. (Didn’t read any of the briefs, etc.)
@JNOV: They’re talking about the fun stuff now, like how can the haters distinguish Romer?
Woot! Hawkins!
@Dodgerblue: Right! Cooper is having some uncomfortable moments.
When he says traditional, he means things old white people like …
Blah blah blah, play pulled from Justice Black, blah blah blah
Reinhardt!
C-Span is down. Anybody got an alternate linky?
Yeah, Reinhardt. I’m giving Cooper the side eye, too.
@Tommmcatt of Avonlea: It’s working OK for me.
@Dodgerblue: See how the man keeps a brother down? Yeesh.
@Tommmcatt of Avonlea: Just looked — only found C-Span :-(
People a tribunal over their constitution? What a maroon.
Working now, thanks all.
@Tommmcatt of Avonlea: Try the main link: http://www.c-span.org/ and click on leetle camera. I’ve got it (unintentionally) running on two tabs right now.
@blogenfreude: Yeah, like in the anti-miscegenation laws.
@JNOV: Go to a bar and see if they’ll put it on for you.
Cooper, oh, Cooper.
“There’s more to it than your answer!”
@blogenfreude: Good football game on tonight, speaking of which.
@JNOV: Randy Smith has a problem saying the word “homosexual.” I’ll bet he’s thinking another word. But this is a very lawyerlike question he’s asking: does a state that never legalized gay marriage have a stronger case than Cal does?
@blogenfreude: Haha! Here? Naw, Catt had the problem — all fixed now.
Perverse? <- not in a sexual context, but really? Cooper, Cooper, Cooper.
Not all men and women have natural procreative capacity, dumbass, and many choose not to exercise that capacity if they have it. Seriously? He’s going there?
@Dodgerblue: Heard something about that … maybe I’ll tune in.
Ask the question – “Should a man and woman who can’t procreate be allowed to marry?”
My time is past — please let me go!
@blogenfreude: Or who choose not to. This is a really weak-assed argument.
@blogenfreude: Struggling with it now.
@JNOV: Olsen comes out swinging!!
Hot bench!
@Dodgerblue: Yup. And prepared to expose Cooper’s dumbfuckery.
Just tuned in. Reinhart is a pretty Jabba-lookin’ guy. Saw him cough and feared the start of a heart attack. That’s the legal level I’m working on so far… ;)
OOoh, that was an angle I’ve never heard before. If marriage is set up by the government to insure procreation, and that is the only reason for it, then it stands to reason that marriage laws therefore could legitimately be used to curtail reproduction.
Interesting.
Shorter Olson:
Fear Us! We will crush you with the weight of previous decisions!
HA! I’m seriously reading that brief now!
Comic books? NOOOOOOOOOO!
Yay, Olson!
@blogenfreude: And video games!
@JNOV: And contact with other children. I got way worse ideas about sexuality from fellow children than I ever did from “adults” around me, including gay people.
IMMUTABLE CHARACTERISTICS, DAMMIT! THANK YOU!
Oh, wow. Olson brings up strict scrutiny? Ballsy and maybe stupid.
Who brought them into this world = fuck you, adoptees.
Oh, wow. Olson. He’s really upping the stakes.
Ha! Pulling out administrative rulings and kissing judicial arse.
Olson is good on his feet.
Great imagery – fence.
@Dodgerblue: Right? I wanna be like him.
YES YOU ARE FREE TO GO BEYOND THE RULING! You know you want to!
Olson! Olson! Olson!
Woot! And don’t you be coming for left-handed people next!
@JNOV: We are a sinister people.
can’t watch, i’ll have an aneurysm. y’all’s play by play much more tolerable. you know, i’m in a bubble. i honestly can’t get my daily news from anyone but jon lately. that the 9th circuit is involved in this AT ALL makes me sick from the get go.
i hate people. the stupid, it burns.
What’s the deal with Hawkins, anyway?
ADD: Why is he trying to differentiate CA from other states?
@baked: What? Are you OK?
Cooper! Sheesh. This goes beyond a case of nerves. You’re totally out of your league. You lack passion, conviction, a decent argument, and you sound stoopid. Stoopid is as stoopid does.
@blogenfreude:
eh, i’m OK…thanks for noticing. i have the flu and everything is on my nerves. this is such a waste of time, can we move on?
@blogenfreude:
webcam me tonight…..i’ll either be in a tirade over humanity itself or drunk, and in a tirade over humanity itself.
@baked: and I’ll be either in a tirade over the Jets playcalling or drunk … it’s a date!
The Tree is Orange Bowl bound. w00t?
Personally, I don’t think Reinhardt’s the type to wimp out on a technicality.
You got that right.
I’m listening to some awesome Israeli metal right now.
http://www.decibelmagazine.com/featured/dukatalon-saved-by-fear-full-album-streaming/
Breaking: Elizabeth Edwards Seriously Ill
Elizabeth Edwards’ cancer has spread, and her health has deteriorated, multiple sources told WRAL News.
-politicalwire.com
@redmanlaw: I’m listening to Nancy Wilson (the jazz singer, not the lady from Heart). What a voice.
@redmanlaw: Not unexpected, but very sad all the same.
@mellbell: At least someone here besides Nojo and DB has some classy taste in music. As for me, I * can’t *wait * to hear this shit really loud. I’m at work now.
@redmanlaw: I liked the samples from your FB link. The idea of a wash of sound from the distorted guitar and the bass player and drummer playing freely really appeals to me.
/@redmanlaw and @IanJ-specific TJ/
Color me surprised, but Talibunny appears to be a “hunter” without the slightest clue how to handle a gun.
@flippin eck: On Palin’s own Facebook page, a viewer wrote, “What a joke. I was a fan before the show. No one who is a true hunter lets others carry their rifle or can’t load their own shells. Sarah, you are a phony in this area of your ‘skills.”
Hope somebody got a screenshot of that page …
@redmanlaw: That poor woman and her poor, poor children. I’ll bet the worst part of dying for her is the fear of the alien getting her clutches on the little ones.
As a Republican I am personally affronted by these activist judges. Has no one read the Constitution?
@redmanlaw: Dirty blues at the Remote Office right now. Never know what you’re going to get here, which is part of the charm.
@Benedick: Your fellow Republican Ted Olson argued for teh gheyz … a little cognitive dissonance?
@blogenfreude: He’ll show up. His hair will be . . . .perfect.
@flippin eck: Completely unsurprised. What really surprised me is that a skittish prey animal would hang around for five(?) shots. Granted, I’m 180° off being a hunter, but don’t you figure the first shot would send him running? Why all the hush-hush whispering while amateurishly banging slugs at god-knows-what behind the apparently deaf deer? Of course, that’s more RML’s call than mine.
I found it extremely curious that dad was operating the bolt for her. It suggests (even if you discount any “gun maturity” question on her part) that she gives him a lot of power, and allows him to treat her like a child.
@IanJ: … and allows him to treat her like a child. Or, as we prefer to put it, like a woman.
@blogenfreude: RINO. Ann Coulter has much of interest to say on the subject.
@Mistress Cynica: The Edwards family issued a statement to People magazine: “Elizabeth has been advised by her doctors that further treatment of her cancer would be unproductive. She is resting at home with family and friends.”
Elizabeth has posted a statement on her Facebook page: “The days of our lives, for all of us, are numbered. We know that. And yes, there are certainly times when we aren’t able to muster as much strength and patience as we would like. It’s called being human. But I have found that in the simple act of living with hope, and in the daily effort to have a positive impact in the world, the days I do have are made all the more meaningful and precious.”
@flippin eck: Hunting is stressful enough without having video camera in your face. The 3 min clip didn’t address all the issues raised in the article. I did see the booger hook on the bang switch when the guide handed her his rifle, which he did when she empties Pop’s rifle shooting and missing at the caribou. They’re asking about the wind not so much because it would affect the shot, but whether the hunters’ scent would be carried over to the animal.
My brother shot at and grazed a cow elk two years ago because his rifle wasn’t sighted in. We spent three hours looking for a blood trail to track. I could have taken the second shot but didn’t want to horn in on his gig. Personally, I love sighting in rifles and spending time out in the sagebrush and hills practicing from field positions. I even created a table this year showing my accuracy and probability of hits for two rifles from four positions each at 100 and 200 yards.
@IanJ: Very good points on the number of shots and the family dynamic. Generally prone over a rest is the most accurate of the field positions, so it was surprising to see her miss but I don’t know what the range was. My .308 is pretty dead on to 200 yards, but I needed a spotter with a range finder and spotting scope to help me aim high to hit a target at 320 yards one day.
@IanJ:
The best part of that article is the commenters from Hannity’s site that are SURE that her rifle must have been tampered with (prolly by George Soros somehow). They don’t need political change, they fucking need Thorazine if they’re that paranoid.
TWD TJ/ Tomorrow is a long time.
Damn, I really wish I had been able to watch oral arguments and comment with y’all. Much more productive use of my time than a four hour meeting with opposing counsel and defendants.
@JNOV: Hugs
@SanFranLefty: Hugs to YOU! I’m cool. I’m talking about The Walking Dead. They ended the season with Dylan’s Tomorrow Is a Long Time. But I’ll take hugs any day and in any way! :-*
ETA: They must’ve paid big bank for the rights to that song which makes me not so pissed about the crappy CGI.
@SanFranLefty: You were missed.
THE WALKING DEAD TJ AND SPOILERS
Okay. So. Cliffhanger? Not really.
Mad scientist (MS)? Check. Wife business predicable.
We’ll never be safe? Check.
We’ll keep trying? Check. Gotta or there’s no Season 2
Shane needs to be put down? Check.
Gonna leave TWO fertile wimminz in the CDC? No way. Esp. when Old Winnebago wants to bone Surviving Sister.
Only cliffhanger: What did the MS whisper in Rick’s ear? Did he see Shane on closed-circuit TV? Hmmmmmm…
Predictions for next season:
Tension between procreation and survival reaches a head. All season long. Like, all season. Forever. Might skip it, esp b/c of the writers being fired.
@JNOV: I was bummed about city planner lady. It would’ve been nice to get to know her character a little better.
@mellbell: I agree. I liked her a lot, but I guess she was too uppity or something. ;-) Hopefully she found a better paying gig, and that’s why she was written out. Would much rather have seen SS and OW be vaporized. You know we’re going to see some awkward stuff between those two. Never trust a guy who wants to adopt an adult woman as his daughter or as his sister.
ETA: Uncles by marriage who beg you to “Stop calling me Uncle X; just call me X.” <- they're up to no good. Women who adopt other women as sisters are usually okay unless they adopted you because they see you as competition. These are the rules.
@Tommmcatt of Avonlea: Ah! You’re reading the comic or you’ve read it already? I also said I’d blow off LOST after the second season only to go back and catch up during the third. Empty threats here. Oh, and Jr brought home Watchmen. Maybe I’ll start that tonight.
TWD TJ cont./
So, who thinks that Rick and Shane probably grew up together, maybe Rick’s a couple of years older. Rick got to play first base or pitch, and Shane was the catcher.
Shane is hot and awesome in his own right, but DAMN if his eyes aren’t turning green. I’m very sad about that. Maybe he just cracked, or in this new world where there are no rules, maybe he’s stuck between trying to maintain order and pissed about being unseated by Rick.
ETA: Oh, and that “I’ll change places with him in a heartbeat.” No shit, Shane.
The legal reporter for the local fishwrap thinks that the panel will issue a narrow opinion limited to California and not as sweeping as some of us would want. I guess it comes down to whether Reinhardt and Hawkins want to write an opinion that is a love letter to Justice Kennedy, much like Judge Walker did in the district court, or go balls out. Either way it’s going up. And hell, if it’s narrow enough, maybe Smith would join them. I’m pleasantly surprised to see that per the Comical,
But Judge N. Randy Smith, the panel’s most conservative member, said California grants gay and lesbian couples the same rights as heterosexuals, including child custody and property rights, while denying them only the ability to marry. “What is the rational basis for that?” he asked.
/I would say strict scrutiny, not rational basis, should be the test, but if Smith thinks it even fails rational basis analysis, so be it, I’m not going to argue with him striking it down.
I’m going to look for a transcript to read – or check to see if C-SPAN is re-airing it tonight.
@JNOV: When you said tomorrow I thought you were referring to that other thing you brought up in the sandbox. Zombies, very well, carry on.
@SanFranLefty: Yeah. I was like, wow. Strict scrutiny — that’s AWESOME because then we’re in fundamental rights land, and that’s where this issue belongs. I liked the fact that Walker was like, Ha! This doesn’t even pass rational basis! but to have it fail strict scrutiny? That’s good shit! Equal Protection, motherfuckers!
Yeah, I figured that’s what you meant about the hug, and like I wrote, I’ll take it! I have no news to report. Just waiting. When I know something, I’ll let you all know. Imma hug you now! HUGS!
@redmanlaw: What do you think about the probability of that elk hanging around after the first shot? I’m genuinely curious, having never even come close to hunting. I would have figured it would be outta there like (forgive me) a shot after the first crack.
@IanJ: Depends.
“If you see the animal start to react after the bullet has landed, you’ve probably missed. If you are very close when you miss, or the elk is watching you as you fire, or if the bullet strikes nearby, you can expect the elk to flee. It isn’t running because it’s hit, but because it’s been frightened by you or the explosion or the bullet’s impact nearby. If you miss badly from a distance, an elk will seldom move. The missile’s sonic crack appears not to alarm most elk. It alerts some, but because it doesn’t signal an obvious hazard or reveal its origin, the animals have no incentive to move. Blind flight has little to recommend it; evolution favors creatures that run in safe directions only.
“A hit usually brings immediate reaction. However, the attitude of the animal when you shoot can influence its reaction. An undisturbed elk is less apt to dash away than is an elk that knows about you or is otherwise alarmed. Once I shot a bull through one lung with a .270 bullet that went to pieces. The animal ran a few steps, then stopped, unsure as to what was wrong. A follow-up shot killed him. Had that elk known about me, I’d likely not have had that second chance.”
http://www.rmef.org/Hunting/RifleCart/Rifles/ReadingTheHit.htm
@redmanlaw: Huh, interesting. Thanks.
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