We’re Reconsidering Our Opposition to Torture
Won’t someone *please* think of the cross-kittens?
Attention-seeking behaviors are bad and should generally be ignored. However, one has a slight curiosity to see whether they will get the hell beaten out of them.
I am as liberal as the next Islamunofascist Upper West Sider, but this is just silly. I think I’ll head over there at lunchtime and offer them cheesesteaks. Wit Whiz, of course.
Who was the moran who thought this was a good idea?
Sometimes I wonder if these clowns are actually agit prop folks paid for by the “animal abuse” industry to make the concept of animal rights look fucking stupid.
If they were going to make senseless references to racist psychopaths why didn’t they dress up like Nazis and goosestep around the block holding stuffed animals, pausing every so often to put a cocked ear up to the snout of their charges saying, “What’s that? Fluffy? Your name is Fluffy! Isn’t that a Jewish name? To the chambers with you!”
i saw these missing links last time i was in philly on walnut street in front of jaque ferber (you know where i mean jnov) they were spray painting the windows and shrieking. philly’s finest showed up and i watched this mele from a safe distance as i was wearing fur. (i know i know.) i just don’t see the difference between wearing leather and fur. and they were wearing leather. what, they don’t care about cows and crocodiles?
i’d like to see them all buried up to their necks with their heads covered in mink kibble. let um loose and have their heads chewed off.
and WTF….at a dog show? where the pooches are royalty?
why don’t they go and dismantle all the puppy mills? morans.
I am as liberal as Karl Motherfucking Marx, I think the workers should control of the material means of production, but I have lost all patience with several of the causes which have become associated with “liberal,” when I think they really meant “crazy.”
Gun control. Sorry, I just don’t give a flying fuck.
Peta, of course, and all “animal rights” moroons.
And I am getting there with the enviros. The Sierra Club here in my State spends its time blocking wind power projects, and roads, and basically, anything an everything. This is why it costs so fucking much to do any kind of public works project in the US, you have to pay off the enviros. The Sierra Club’s MO is similar to Jesse Jackson’s MO. Swoop in whenever you see an opportunity, threaten to call out the protestors and the media, oh, unless the company that wants to do this project would also be interested in sponsoring a multimillion dollar study, to be performed by the Sierra Club, and also, buy us 10,000 acres over here.
An economist on TV the other day was lamenting the paradox that the very best stimulus possible for the economy would be direct spending on kamjor public works, but for some reason, he said, this takes so long in the US. Yes, because of the enviros jacking up the project.
@ManchuCandidate: I’ve always wondered that about PETA. And the fact that they bitch and moan about animals being treated badly and then they objectify women by having them run around naked. FSM knows that I worship the puppehs and the kittehs more than anyone, and certainly don’t think we need to gouge out bunnies’ eyes with mascara wands for the hell of it, but many of the animal rights groups are just like fucking terrorists. Researchers at the UC system here have had their houses attacked, bombs left near labs, etc. It’s not like these fuckers aren’t enjoying the scientific advances of medicine courtesy of animal testing.
@Promnight: I disagree re: the enviros. You can have sustainable development that balances the environmental future of this planet and reasonable economic growth. And with that said, I will sit back here, pop some popcorn, and wait for Dodger to respond.
PETA thrives on your hate. As for myself, I enjoy the Shirley Manson ads for them I’ve seen.
Here’s the latest from Santa Fe, the dog crime capital of the Southwest:
“An English bulldog valued at $2,800 was stolen Monday from the front porch of a residence on Sycamore Loop in the Cottonwood Mobile Home Park.”
ADD: As an environmental lawyer I used to hold shit up all the time. The rule is that the longer it takes the more expensive it becomes. It’s a war of attrition. I held back the Telluride ski area and the Forest Service on a proposed expansion for a couple of years so hippies could squeeze them for some x-c terrain. The FS really fucked up, so you all paid my attorney’s fees on that one under EAJA. After I left the firm, the East Coast rich girl who took over the case missed a deadline and blew the second round of the appeal.
@SanFranLefty: I wasn’t saying anything about balancing sustainable growth and protection of the environment, I was talking about political-special interest fiefdoms and extortion. Just because Jesse Jackson is an extortionist doesn’t mean that civil rights is not a worthy cause. Holding up wind power projects, oh, but they dropped their opposition when they were given $4 million to study whether the birdies would hit the blades. You’d think they’d be in favor of mountaintop-removal coal mining, think of all the birdies that would hit the tops of the moutains, otherwise.
Code Pink and Cindyists are merely shrill and turn up the earnest to eleven. But PETA is on the LaRouche level of freaking odd. I mean, they have a case to make (fur, factory farming, etc.), but they go way over the top.
I remember, back when I was a mere cubicle, that PETA volunteers handed out trading cards to middle schoolers which suggested that milk causes pimples. I mean, at least the Gideons kinda sorta meant well; these guys were just weird.
[Speaking of freaking odd — hey, baked: what be the story from Israel? That freakshow Lieberman (not our Joe, but a real wingnut jackass that wants all Arabs to sign a loyalty oath before being permitted to remain) — is he going to snag a piece of the coalition pie?]
SanFranLefty: Back at Stanford, I lived in the vegan co-op for a year. (This is what happens when you draw dead fucking last in the housing lottery. Do not let this happen to you. Rig the system if you must.) Anyway: there were monthly videos about Earth Firsters locking down and getting maced and climbing trees. The only thing missing were candles surrounding a picture of Julia Butterfly Hill.
One guy who spotted me out as a lawyer-to-be came to me with his third amended complaint once. (Pro se, natch.) Wanted to bring a RICO claim against Big Bad Redwood Tree Kiling Lumber Holding Co., Ltd. I helped him out as much as I could (with enough non-lawyer alerts to absolve me of any responsibility for this clown). Just reading the damn thing, though, made me just feel sorry for the guy.
OK if Tomcatt can come out as a Christian then I will follow his lead – not that I am as brave or as good as he but – I was once a member of PETA.
I know. You’re shocked. I was a member for maybe five years. I gave them money. Yes I did. I wore no leather and ate no animal products. Till I came home one Thanksgiving and found that the OH had prepared a Tofurkey fake turkey breast. It then occurred to me that I had perhaps gone too far.
Moral indignation is a powerful drug and it distorts the work of groups like PETA. In my opinion the casual savagery with which we treat most animals will be regarded by our posterity (should we have one) with the same bewildered incomprehension with which we regard the Roman games. That animals should live in squalor and worse only to be slaughtered as cheaply as possible is not acceptable. I have no beef (get it? see that’s like a play on words?) with eating meat but the factory farming is disgusting, inhuman and inhumane. And if you think this is smug just give me five minutes on the wearing of fur. Yes I wear leather but as little as possible and mostly because it’s impossible to find shoes made of anything else that fit me. Believe me, I have tried. And yes, I’m aware that that is an excuse.
@Promnight: Environmentalists are, I think, responding to the extreme deceit and bullying practiced by those with the money. They’ve seen vast tracts of land wrecked for no good reason other than making some Republican rich. Florida, for example. In my neck of the woods (see, I did it again! Am I on fire or what?) there has been a land grab to open a ‘resort’ in the heart of the as yet unspoiled Catskill wilderness. The only jobs it will provide are for the Dominican women bused in to clean. And it will make a lot of money for the developer. It is being pushed through with a mixture of bribery and cronyism. So why should any environmental group trust the intentions of any developer when they learn very fast that there is nothing but deceit from the other side?
@Promnight: I don’t think it’s extortion when enviros force developers to follow the fucking law. And civil rights attorneys would be out of work if the federal and state and local governments followed the fucking law. Instead, agencies are too chicken shit to do anything that’s seen as giving “rights” to people who are less desirable (i.e. disabled, minorities, prisoners, poor kids in foster care) or that would involve spending money. And then you wind up with federal judges running the California prison system because elected officials are too chicken shit to stand up to the prison guards or are afraid of having ads run against them saying they are soft on crime, and want the political cover of saying that it’s a federal judge ordering them to follow the law.
@chicago bureau: I’m sorry. Vegan food sucks. Gotta have the cheese.
If they are sincere then they’re going about it via the W method of “lurving” US America by destroying its economy and military.
The problem with big engineering projects is that many environmental concerns are handled by saying “It’ll all work out.” The sad fact is that they rarely do and someone ends up holding the bag. Not to say that ALL environmentalists are pure of soul, mind and body. They’re human afterall.
Forcing someone to Pay You Cash is not forcing someone to Follow The Law. I am unaware of the law that says you must pay the Sierra Club large cash payments before you are allowed to build anything.
@Promnight: Maybe the Sierra Club affiliates in Jersey roll differently than the ones out here. The decentralized structure of the organization is its Achilles’ heel.
But when I worked at the Sierra Club, we didn’t do that. We just made sure that the clean air and water laws were followed, and tried to stop the Bush administration from allowing clear-cut logging at national forests.
@Benedick: I represented the Humane Society of the US, Animal Protection of New Mexico and the Inter-tribal Bison Coalition and an individual Indian tribe once to stop a buffalo hunt on federal military lands that had not gone through the requisite analysis to determine the environmental/socioeconomic effects of the hunt (not really a hunt. You drive up, fire at the animal with a large caliber rifle and it falls down. ) We got a federal court injunction to stop the hunt on Mrs RML’s birthday, and gave a TV interview where I said “it’s always a good day when the Indians beat the Army (much cheering and hand shaking in the place where we went for dinner later).
My gramps used to ride the train to hunt buffalo in Kansas in the early part of the 20th century. Our tribe has it’s own herd now and I do the Buffalo Dance on Jan 6 every year.
So anyway, I was fishing one day at a tribal fish pond when a cattle car full of bison trundles past, bound for their nearby pastures. As part of the eventual settlement, that tribe and others got buffalo to add to or start their own herds.
Oh, also coming out as polytheist/theocrat non-Christian, at least at home. Out here, it’s separation of church and state, etc.
ADD: @ lefty – “And civil rights attorneys would be out of work if the federal and state and local governments followed the fucking law.” Mrs. RML says that’s the big secret of environmental law. I told that to the assistant US attorney defending the feds in an environmental action and he rolled his eyes over his clients’ antics.
On a totally unrelated and much lighter note, I just discovered that Perez Hilton refers to the kookoo lady in SoCal with the 14 kids and the Angelina fixation “Octopussy.” Total coffee spray on the laptop here.
Considering her other six kids, wouldn’t Quattropussy be more appropriate?
@Benedick: I eat meat, but I have to know where it came from and I pay about twice the going rate per pound to do so, which means I eat less meat than if I bought it shrink-wrapped at Walmart. I’ve seen the farm where the chickens, turkey, and the eggs I eat are raised, and I know they live in the pastures during the day and go into the coop at night. I know where the lamb in my freezer came from, how it lived, and how it was killed (not in a slaughterhouse). These things are important to me (see snakehandler thread). Also, I secretly applaud the group in the Antarctic ramming the whaling ships. But PETA? the KKK? Really, people? Buy a history book. Dressing as the KKK does not, I repeat NOT, increase anyone’s sympathy for your cause.
TJ: Senate passes the stimulus bill 61-37. I’d like to see the 37 “no” voters on all fours at the Westminster Show being serviced by a Great Dane.
@SanFranLefty: I was a vegan for a while, then a vegetarian. Then a beautiful woman tempted me with a cheeseburger, and the rest is history.
@Dodgerblue: Nevermind, found it. Sorry.
Where did you see this? All of the news Web sites I can find are bloviating about how the markets are down because of our evil Geithner’s bailout plan.
@Mistress Cynica: My friend Alex grew our beef. We got it for about what it would cost in the local small natural foods store, even with the gas to Durango factored in. As for the elk in the freezer, I can taste the grass in the meat and have a good guess as regards where on the reservation it came from. The buffalo used to live in the pasture on the road to the Pueblo.
@blogenfreude: “Then a beautiful woman tempted me with a cheeseburger, and the rest is history” Not unlike Eve.
@Mistress Cynica: I think that’s an absolutely reasonable position. Unfortunately I found I’d moved past the meat thing. I stopped giving money to PETA because I found their self-righteousness intolerable. But they have done good things and probably will do more in the future. The story of the founding of the group and the Silver Springs monkeys is heartbreaking.
I also have no real objection to hunting if it’s honestly done – meaning not the Dick Cheney kind. It’s just not for me.
@rptrcub: I’m reading the story on CNN about how the Repugs are accusing the Unicorn of “theft” so I missed the one on the vote.
@SanFranLefty: I think you have bigger stakes out west (more things to save) and also, our State DEP is over-the-top enough, we don’t have weak State enforcement, I mean.
@Dodgerblue: And your Senate conferees are… Daniel Inouye, Max Baucus, Harry Reid, Thad Cochran and Chuck Grassley. In case anyone cares.
I have an ethical objection to fur. Raising a carnivore and feeding it meat just to make decorative coats is wasteful, extremely wasteful, and we shouldn’t waste like that while any human goes hungry. It has nothing to do with concern for the various varieties of weasel from which fur is made.
@chicago bureau: thanks. how’d you find this out? who are the House folks?
@chicago bureau: Just sothey put the State aid back in. That will do more to prevent misery than anything.
Dodgerblue: I was C-SPANing it from the office, and they announced ’em right after the vote was called. House people? Who can say?
And here is a quick and dirty side-by-side comparison of the two versions of the bill.
@Promnight: It will help to prevent my misery, that’s for sure. I can’t do a furlough day a week, much less lose my job. (BTW, this state functionary is at lunch, so nyah.)
Bless our public employees.
i am like lefty, worshiping the furred four legged. i haven’t eaten meat in 20 years and for as long have contributed each and every month to best friends and the humane society. i have no explanation for my mink coats. they’re warm and i know they are raised and killed in the kosher humane way. it’s why they were born in the first place.
but i am ashamed i admit. it’s a contradiction i haven’t come to terms with. it’s fucking freezing here, and was grateful to the little farm raised rodents that kept me toasty. i feel so guilty now.
and what do you think we’ll be wearing after the apocolypse?
flintstone pelts. survival, people.
@rptrcub: @redmanlaw: Not just the state employees, its that the state’s administer the first-line assistance to those hit by this, the unemployed, those without health insurance.
Just watched the very end of the Obama town hall meeting in Florida, it was like a Beatles concert.
This guy plays chess, doesn’t he? He’s got a long term strategy, beyond just passage of the stimulus. He’s sending a message to every republican pigfucker senator, “fuck with me, and I will come to your own backyard, stand there with your republican governor, and make you look like an asshole.” There are only 40 of them, he has time to personally fuck them all.
DEVELOPING HARD: Wall Street traders less than thrilled with TurboTax’s plan. Dow now at 4.2% FAIL for the day, with the speed round coming up in a couple of hours.
[ADD: Reason for FAIL: Banks are getting clobbered. JP RobberBaron down 8%, CitiRobberBaron down 12%, and Bank of AmeriRobberBaron down 18%. The rest of the Dow is down too, but not nearly as bad.]
@SanFranLefty: Excellent tip, Lefty, thanks. Unfortunately, it looks like the Senate ash-canned any salvation for state budgets and real infrastructure improvement in favor of those individual tax cuts.
@rptrcub: They give you lunch?
@redmanlaw: But feed us first.
@baked: I am feeling hopeful lately, baked, Nouriel Roubini himself says that the contraction will end second half of this year, though the pain will last into 2010. He says real estate will go down another 20%, and then the worst will be over.
We may survive this with only minimal, acceptable losses. 10 or 20 million tops. I’m not saying we won’t get our hair mussed.
@Promnight: Barry plays poker. I’ve used that as a shorthand for understanding him from the moment I heard about it.
@nabisco: From a personal self-interest point of view, I will make out like a bandit. But don’t worry, I will spend it.
@nojo: Even more, Barry plays poker with Republicans. He gets it.
@Promnight: It will go down by another 50% and all of those McMansions will be filled with starving neonazi militias who’ll be eating the wall board when they can’t get their hands on pets, random game and human flesh.
@Promnight: That’s not what they’re saying in Downing Street. They’re talking about worse than 29 and lasting for 15 years. They’re also concerned about the political impact. ie a resurgence of fascism.
@Benedick: At least two generations. Our great grandkids will dedicate saints for prayers for housing and potatoes.
I’m pretty much with you on PETA. It’s very unfortunate they make themselves such an easy target.
The agro-industrial poultry,pork,beef methods are exceedingly cruel, irregardless of the sanity of the messengers. Fortunately the whole “eat local” food movement is bringing a lot of the factory farm abuse to light.
They even do kind of have a point about dog breeding, insofar as most popular dog breeds have been overbred to the point of genetic defects. Just sayin’
I also find a lot of the comments to the USA Today interesting. All the projections people put on (mostly harmless) groups like PETA. The whole “eco-terror” meme has been a masterful bill of goods sold by Big AG, Logging and Mining…
Nixon played poker… He won thousands in the Navy which put him through college when he got home…..
the arab citizens living in israel already have restrictions. they can’t vote for starters , other restrictions also, not sure what.i haven’t seen any election results yet. i’m routing for sipi,a long shot. bibi and barauch scare the hell out of me. itchy trigger fingers, sipi, the woman, is the moderate. she’s no golda, and i think it’s what the country needs. most israeli’s are ready set go for anyone even thinking of fucking with them, which is not the best tack. my bet is on netanyahu. i’ll keep you posted.
Note to Prommie: GM Laying off 10,000 salaried workers.
@redmanlaw: Well enough now to sit upright and be annoyed at how shitty I feel, which is a huge improvement.
DEVELOPING HARD: Miguel Tejada to plead guilty to lying to Congress.
As you will remember, Tejada
was responsible for leading the nation into war used the financial system as his own little roulette wheel to the detriment of the nation steroids.
[CB attempting to resist urge to stab pencil into hand in order to get mind off of the pain]
prommie, are you sick? i have the flu too! (again)
i miss a lot with the time difference.
Can you help explain why A-Hole wants to play for Willie Wonka’s Oompa Loompa team?
@baked: It better be the flu, I get all kinds of hypochondriac-ey when I am sick. The worst flu ever, or appendicitis, or liver failure, in which case, I blame W.
ManchuCandidate: Resides in Florida.
@SanFranLefty & ManchuCandidate:
You could go all español and call her “Catorcepussy,” which is actually quite catchy.
(I’m sensing the next Ricky Martin hit).
Dear FSM: Please save us; our “leaders” are insane. They’ve spent two decades and three administrations criticizing Japan’s response to their economic slump and now we’re doing the same–propping up failed banks, insufficiently funding the social safety net–only 10x worse. No one learns anything from anything, and no one remembers anything that happened over three days ago. The End.
Turbo Tax Tim declares “War on Insolvency”
You are so lucky that you live behind the Canadia Sanity Firewall (aka the Border). Jim Flaherty would be so knocked on his ass if he tried to pull this shit in Parliament.
Scary. The Brits know fascism, having lived under Thatcher for so long….
@ManchuCandidate: Did you listen to Jim Rome this afternoon as well? A-Roid got hammered for the sweater-and-orange tan thing, I was dying.
More likely laughed at and mocked harshly all over the TV.
Kadima up in xit polls.
@nabisco: Har. I was a good boy and listening to Thom Hartman. Shoulda gone to Romie.
Nope, but not surprised. I guess hanging out with the Fems and Ghey clique has rubbed off onto me because I’m also wondering about WTF he/ESPN thought that color of blush was a good idea with orange skin.
redmanlaw: Awww… poor Bibi fall down.
I’m guessing there’s a grand coalition afoot. A three-way (kosher, of course) with Tzipi running the show, Bibi’s crew taking a number of key portfolios, and (perhaps) the scrummy little devil, Ehud Barak (Stanford, bitches) completing the group. All to freeze out those loons on the far right — Avigdor Lieberman and his purity test crap. If she has to run a minority government with Lieberman calling the shots? It won’t last as long as the Dion-Layton-Duceppe freakshow.
There are about a dozen reasons why the Stimulus Bill (the Senate version anyway), TARP I and TARP II are so fucked, but the ultimate issue is that they’re trying to return us to the status quo, which in itself was totally unsustainable.
There needs to be a fundamental, structual change to the US economy, especially in regards to the social contract and wealth redistribution, and things really won’t improve until then. It looks like they’re willing to spend countless trillions postponing that day of reckoning though.
Reflexes had got the better of me
And what is to be must be:
Every day the bucket a-go a well,
One day the bottom a-go drop out,
One day the bottom a-go drop out.
– Robert Nesta Marley, “I Shot the Sheriff”
Well, look at the median income of the people doing the spending. That pretty much explains everything.
Wasn’t Bibi (didn’t he used to be Bebe, last time he was PM?) convicted of some kind of sleazy corruption of some kind back then? Stealing from the poorbox, or something?
@Original Andrew: I don’t think they are trying to return us to the status quo, I get the impression that those who are literate in economics are desperately trying to prevent a crash that will last generations, and know that even if they are succesful, it won’t be back to status quo.
TJ probably (Haven’t read earlier comments since many hours ago):
This afternoon’s mail just brought me the Nation. Here is Calvin Trillin’s latest, short and sweet, titled Incentives:
The Wall Street ways are mighty funny:
A bonus comes for losing money.
About this rule they’re quite devout.
No wonder they need bailing out.
[Now I should send money to the Deadline Poet.]
@SanFranLefty: Many thanks for the link to comparison of the House and Senate versions.
@nojo: Agreed- Nixon would be great on TV Poker- I’d especially like to watch him put a beat on Phil Hellmuth….
@fupduk: “Sock it. To me?”
tj/ my favorite billing entry for the day: “Legal research and analysis re: personnel matters related to alleged involvement of employees in homicides.”
Then why are they bending over backwards to avoid doing what must be done, namely nationalizing and liquidating the zombie banks (Citibank, B of A, etc)? The shareholders have already been wiped out, and those bank shares aren’t just resting–they’re on the floor of the cage with their legs in the air. The zombie banks are insolvent, and they’re not coming back no matter how many Obama$bux$ get pumped into them. The fact that Geither is hellbent on continuing the Treasury tradition of keeping Wall Street an Accountability-Free Zone certainly doesn’t help.
thanks for correcting my atrocious spelling of the players.
when i was a 12 year old femnist i made a decision to never learn to type or spell, i would have a job where someone else would do it for me.
not one of my better ideas.
and i have no interest in starting now. i’m starting hebrew classes and will be misspelling in 3 languages soon!
midnight in jerusalem, going to bed to the sound of hail hitting the windows. very very unusual weather we’re having.
i call dibs on the wilma outfit, reds.
nite nite dear stinquers.
Hey Prommie, in my view, shared by my organization, it is unethical to even talk about fees until the merits of a lawsuit are settled. Here in CA, the construction industry would fill in and pave Yosemite if they could get the work. I spent last week in DC at the Good Jobs, Green Jobs conference put on by the Blue/Green labor/enviro alliance that the Steelworkers and Sierra Club started. We’re all on the same page about job creation in the new economy — meaning good, union jobs making stuff for hybrid and electric cars (now outsourced to Korea and Germany), wind turbines (China) — here in the US.
@Original Andrew: What you said.
Somebody needs to forcefeed a dozen cheeseburgers to those assclowns.
@SanFranLefty: More like Octoloon.
Personally, though, I prefer to call her Fucking Nutjob.
MANCHUCANDIDATE • Quentin Tarantino presents Action Joe and Mister Z @SanFranLefty: Wiped out
SANFRANLEFTY • Quentin Tarantino presents Action Joe and Mister Z @ManchuCandidate: Bitch, March Madness is ON! xoxo
MELLBELL • Quentin Tarantino presents Action Joe and Mister Z @nojo: I mooch Disney+ from my sister and HBO Max from my ex. Still need a Hulu hookup though!
MELLBELL • Quentin Tarantino presents Action Joe and Mister Z @ManchuCandidate: As a veteran of last year's tournament, you were re-invited with one click, so…
MELLBELL • Quentin Tarantino presents Action Joe and Mister Z @nojo: I'm just late, as ever. The play-in games started Tuesday, but we've got until tomorrow.…
NOJO • Software Update of the Year @bruce.desertrat: I have failed to get any work done since that dropped.
BRUCE.DESERTRAT • Software Update of the Year Disturbing my cow-orkers laughing at this....
NOJO • Quentin Tarantino presents Action Joe and Mister Z @¡Andrew!: I tried RRR a few times at Benedick’s insistence, just couldn’t last. And now…
¡ANDREW! • Quentin Tarantino presents Action Joe and Mister Z @nojo: I watched the clips on YouTube. Lady Gaga’s performance was extraordinarily honest and…
NOJO • Quentin Tarantino presents Action Joe and Mister Z @ManchuCandidate: Oh gee, that starts tomorrow? Haven’t heard from Mellbell, so guess not.