And I Am Telling On You

As iterated before: I am getting really tired of these people claiming to be the victim of a McCarthyist scheme to blacklist people for their opinions.

It ain’t blacklisting. It’s fighting back in a way which does not result in us snapping their necks.

It takes a stone cold heart to work in the entertainment industry and be for Prop 8.

My blind hatred for the GOP after their convention through the election has now been transferred over to the Mormons and anyone else who supported Prop 8. I hope I never, ever meet anyone who supports it – I will not be held responsible for my actions.

“privately held religious beliefs ….”

When your religious beliefs result in death and gin up hate (as they often do) you deserve what you get.

I think this is very wrong. Very wrong. These are the tactics of O’Reilly et al and should not be used by our side.

Not everyone who voted for the proposition is either homophobic or a bigot and we should stop using such language. And we should stop presenting ourselves as if we are powerless. By all means protest against the involvement of the church(es), and in particular expose the dishonesty of the LDS, but this kind of thing – hounding people out of their jobs because of their religious views – should not be going on. It will come back to bite us.

If you don’t like someone’s personal involvement the solution is simple: don’t work with them. On a personal level. But for members of what is a truly homophobic industry, Hollywood, to get up on their high-horse about this is as hypocritical as anything the Mormons have done. If actors are afraid to let it be known that they are gay they should be doing something about their own lives. The movie Milk comes out and everyone is patting themselves on the back about their courage. I hope it’s as good as I hear it is, however, it’s kind of tiresome to have to listen to all the actors involved letting it be known that they’re totally %100 straight and that it was kind of ewwish to kiss a man.

The argument for civil rights seems to have been engulfed in a temper tantrum that shows no signs of abating. I don’t blame anyone for being pissed but let’s get real. Moral indignation feels good but it’s rather like masturbation. Let’s not forget that the states passing bills doesn’t amount to much apart from adoption or raising one’s own children. And that’s important, I know. I know that because I live in a state that recognizes our marriage. They have, however, told us not to submit joint state tax returns. It’s illegal to file joint federal returns. And we will have no right of inheritance over each other’s social security when that day arrives.

@rptrcub: I was on the point of replying to your posting of that long ranting piece yesterday but had to go for the bus to the city. But I must say, with respect and affection, that I think that sort of language does us nothing but harm. Again, it feels good but it’s meaningless plus he gets the facts of his argument wrong. Perhaps some of our lawyers will correct me but marriage has not, as that writer claims, been taken over by the government: it is, and always has been, a civil institution that has been co-opted by the church. One marries in a church under license from the state not the other way round. The Primitive Church refused to marry couples, it was enough for them to say that they were married. Of course, Jesus was very against his followers being married, an attitude that lasted for centuries. The Pilgrims of Plymouth refused to marry in their churches for the same reason. If the spokespeople for our side would educate themselves we’d all be better off. You must have seen that so-called Homosexual Manifesto that has become a staple of the Christianists. It was written as a cri de couer by a gay man. It is in the form of a manifesto, warning the Goddists that gay men would indeed be coming for their sons. The writer’s point of view – his despair and outrage at having to listen to the slurs and lies coming from the Chosen – was made explicit by the first sentence but of course that is now left off. Perhaps a better tack would be to substitute the phrase I forgive you instead of the repetitions of ‘fuck this’ or that.

@Benedick: I’ll let the people who want to take the Gandhian/Jeebus/King/et. al. route worry about that. I say that with respect and lurve, too. I understand the trolls and the WNDers are watching me and others (esp. Joe.My.God. where some of the fagehlehs are getting really off the hinges) but honestly I’m not giving a shit right now.

Sorry, I’m snappy due to a generally craptastic short work week, including cutting my heel, walking around downtown Atlanta not realizing I had done so and having my shoes and pants caked with blood, and then falling down on my palms while trying to look at it, plus I spilled hot coffee on me this morning.

Also, it may be that I’ve cut back on the Seroquel because I’m tired of feeling like a fucking zombie.

Nojo, you’re turning into such an angry gay. I love it!

@rptrcub: @Benedick: I think there is room for both approaches to be quite honest. You get the people who are energetic and angry and get people organized, and you have the people who dress up in their finest and play nice and act as ambassadors. I tend to be much more of the former, but have no ill opinion of those they take a much more….civil?…approach.

I must disagree too about these guys that have resigned from their jobs. Some of the most effective tools in the civil rights toolbox are economic in nature, and if these people don’t have enough common sense to avoid getting their names attached to something which they had to be aware would cause them a lot of angst in their profession, then they deserve to lie in the bed they made. No one is protesting their religious views – no one is saying that all Mormons should be fired from wherever they work (well, I don’t read Joe.My.God – I am sure there are exceptions). But by donating these became public actions, which are frankly fair game. If someones public actions threaten the economic vitality of their organization, then they must face the consequences. I can’t think of any sort of job where this wouldn’t be the case.

@homofascist: This has become a witch hunt. Nothing wrong with protesting against institutions, or if an individual is doing something wrong, but I don’t think it’s right to hunt down names and get people fired for what are their religious convictions. I might happen to think they’re stupid but, if the shoe was on the other foot – as it has been – and I’m afraid to subscribe to the Advocate or donate to HRC (as if!) in case I’m found out and fired… that’s what’s going on. And it will come back to hurt us.

I’m not talking about making nice. I’m not afraid to express outrage. I’m not afraid that my words my be co-opted by the Christainists. I’m only talking about this one area. I might disagree with the point of view of some of the protests but I think it’s wonderful that the protests are going on. I do think we need to focus on the national level but perhaps others’ strategies are more informed.

I’ll say again. Witch hunts are not good. This is a witch hunt.

@rptrcub: Hope you’re feeling better.

@Benedick: You’re a good egg, Noonan. Bravo.

@homofascist: After the last 8 years I am not in a forgiving mood. Santorum-like views invite more than ridicule. People who would take away or limit your rights need to pay. Just as Bush and Cheney should pay for eavesdropping and torture, those who traffic in hate should pay for fucking around with other people’s lives.

I’ll say again. Witch hunts are not good. This is a witch hunt.

It’s not a witch hunt when the other side casts a spell on you and fucks with your life. White supremacist groups who damage or end the lives of others are regularly bankrupted by court judgments. This is no different.

@Benedick: In these circumstances there is surely a fine distinction between being fired outright and being hounded into quitting, but has anyone actually been fired over this? It’s, to me, unimaginable that anyone has been.

@Benedick: I sort of read the article AFTER I commented, and I definitely agree that getting harassing phone calls and emails is not cool.

However, I still think you are conflating religious convictions and political donations, which are different things entirely. If they were going after Mormons just because they are Mormons, well obviously that is wrong. But if homos want to find out everyone who donated so their ghey dollars don’t support that business anymore, then I just don’t see the fault. Dude could have gone in and cast his little vote and it is no one’s business but his own. But he was compelled to donate by his church (which is fucked up on many levels) and got himself into this mess. Dude didn’t resign because he is Mormon, dude resigned because his public actions seriously compromised his ability to perform his job and keep his organization viable. No sympathy. I am not going to let them play victim and hide behind their religious beliefs (“but I am a good churchie and they told me to!”) any more than I am going to let Bill O’Reilly trick me into his whole blacks vs. gays narrative.

I want you to know that I do respect the hell out of your opinion – I know there are hysterical queens out there taking it over the top. I wish this could be done in a more disciplined fashion, as I am a huge fan of voting with your dollars.

And another thing:

Nothing wrong with protesting against institutions, or if an individual is doing something wrong, but I don’t think it’s right to hunt down names and get people fired for what are their religious convictions.

It’s a religious conviction if you keep it to yourself. It’s much more if you use your religion to keep me from getting an abortion, or contraception, or from getting treated with stem cells, or from marrying whomever I choose. This is a secular society by design, and if the snake handlers are permitted to force others to live by their rules they won’t stop at Prop 8. And anybody who enables the snake handlers by giving them money is fair fucking game.

@blogenfreude: Even Bill Ayers continues to believe he “didn’t do enough” during his weathermen days. And his side (mostly) won.

A witchhunt is getting a list of all LDS members and then hounding them day and night on the assumption that they gave because of the church. This particular case is not a witchhunt.

And even if it were, he floated, didn’t he?

@nabisco: My opinion in this case is that Malkinesque stalking, email harassment, or property damage is out of line. On the other hand, I have no problem with publicizing the names of those who helped this thing pass.

@Benedick: As long as the, uh, important, parts weren’t burned, I’ll be alright, eventually.

TJ/ Black Eagle calling on us to be sober during the holiday season.

Now that’s sacrifice.

@nabisco: Whaaaaat? I’ll give up my martini shaker when they pry it from my cold dead fingers, right Prommie?

@nabisco: Enough Cosby. Let’s see some Redd Foxx.

@nabisco: @redmanlaw: Oh thank heavens he was speaking economically. I was worried there for a second.
[raises beer bottle]
Carry on!

@redmanlaw: Hic. Wah? I love you man.

@nabisco:
I’m actually glad that all my thanksgivings don’t have booze. Many were bad enough sober and booze would have made it, well, more interesting.

@ManchuCandidate: True dat. Although my family is actually less bearable sober.

Will there be a Turkey Jam?

@Benedick: Not everyone who voted for the proposition is either homophobic or a bigot and we should stop using such language.

I’m sticking with bigot, as manifested by their actions. Let their church salve their souls.

Again: I do not accept that this is a “social issue” about which reasonable people can disagree. I know the history, and I don’t care. Either everyone is an American citizen enjoying the same rights as I do, or they are not. I’m an Enlightenment fundie when these things turn up.

I have no dog in this fight. But if it personally and tangibly affected me, my family, or my close friends, I’d be all over that donor list. I wouldn’t harrass — not my style — but I would send them as many letters as I could afford stamps, and I’d be deeply involved in discussions of strategy and tactics.

I would be, in so many words, pissed. You do not fuck with my people.

Yes, I side with Martin. But I don’t have it in me to condemn those who prefer Malcolm at the moment.

@nabisco: I can run a Thursday jam, but I figured everyone would be preoccupied until the regular Saturday installment. Is there a motion from the floor?

@nojo: I probably won’t have any pictures to share (unless y’all really want to see pictures of green bean casserole and oatmeal cookies), but it couldn’t hurt to keep the regular schedule and let everyone take a breather.

@nojo: Go with the regular schedule. I’ll be cooking, drinking and by late Friday trying to get people to leave.

@mellbell: It’s amazing what lighting – and a fine arts degree – can do with a three bean casserole.

Well the Mormons (and Cathoholics and Fundotards) long-running strategy of shaming and guilting their gay children into committing suicide isn’t winning them any friends either. And—let’s face it—that’s their actual goal. They don’t want us to even exist, so forget about having constitutional rights.

Next time you’re tempted to have sympathy for these people (an emotion they’re not capable of, btw), think of the countless innocent kids these psychos have so driven to despair that they take their own lives. If you have kids, take a long look at them and imagine what kind of monsters could do that.

@Original Andrew: That goes into that whole “blood on their hands” argument I’ve been making. This whole thing has emboldened them to go even further, to ban even separate but unequal civil unions and domestic partnerships.

They will keep doing this shit until people stand up and say, no more. I know that hearts & minds (TM) are important in this, and yes, certain histrionics hurt. But they opened the volleys this round, not us, and we should be prepared to return non-violent fire.

If that also means boycotts, so be it.

@Benedick: Let me first say that marriage equality is THE civil rights issue of our time and I’m willing to go to the barricades for it. On this tactic, however, I have to agree with you. I’ve been in employment situations where I was afraid to express my political views–by donating, protesting, or even displaying a bumper stuck or button–for fear of losing my livelihood. It really, really sucked. I had to give up the right supposedly guaranteed to me by the First Amendment if I didn’t want to find myself unemployed, which I could ill afford. Wasn’t it Voltaire who said something to the effect of “I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”? I won’t be setting foot in the state of Utah if I can help it, or staying in a Marriott, but neither will I try to get individuals who have expressed views or given to political causes fired for exercising their rights.

@Mistress Cynica: Or stepping into a Cinemark theater — CEO Alan Stock pitched in $9,999 for defense of bigotry, which makes me wonder whether he thought he’d slip in beneath a reporting level.

But yes, everyone on the shitlist was exercising their rights, and I certainly can’t be an Enlightenment fundie without going the full Voltaire. (Jury’s still out on Rousseau.) Heck, I’m still on the fence about Skokie. But if they choose to advocate Constitutional bigotry, they’ve removed themselves from polite company. I don’t condone shunning, but I just can’t find it in me to fret about it right now.

Fun take by Tom Ackerman, via Sully…

Yesterday I called a woman’s spouse her boyfriend.

She says, correcting me, “He’s my husband,”

“Oh,” I say, “I no longer recognize marriage.”

The impact is obvious. I tried it on a man who has been in a relationship for years,

“How’s your longtime companion, Jill?”

“She’s my wife!”

“Yeah, well, my beliefs don’t recognize marriage.”

Fun. And instant, eyebrow-raising recognition. Suddenly the majority gets to feel what the minority feels. In a moment they feel what it’s like to have their relationship downgraded, and to have a much taken-for-granted right called into question because of another’s beliefs.

With the greatest respect to you all I would only like to add a few comments and then I’ll shut up.

Think if the Mormons were combing through lists of those who gave to defeat the proposition so they could target them for their donations wouldn’t we all be – justifiably – irate?

We all say ‘bigot’ and ‘homophobe’ way too much. That’s just fundamentalism seen from a different point of view.

We will be celebrating our 40th anniversary in Feb. I don’t expect to see full civil rights in this country in my lifetime.

Sully can kiss my ass. He’s a mere mountebank with an outsize sense of his own importance. The gay Geraldo.