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WTF?
At least seven people are dead and 12 wounded in a shooting at Fort Hood in Texas, the base’s public affairs office told NBC News on Thursday.
The official would not give his name nor additional details. It was unknown whether victims are soldiers or civilians. One gunman was reportedly in custody and another was on the loose, NBC News said.
NBC affiliate KCEN in Waco reported that the second suspect may be holed up in a building on the post.
[MSNBC]
CNN stressing “multiple shooters” unconfirmed.
@nojo: I half expect them to say General Ripper has implemented Wing Attack Plan R. This is nuts.Local station says 1 loose, 1 in custody, one in firefight.
Local military official: “More than one shooter.”
This wouldn’t have happened if Obama hadn’t had been an islamofascist, Fox News reports.
@blogenfreude: I’ll wait until later to make comparisons to the Teabagger Siege. Too early to say whether the Adkisson Brigades have been activated.
CNN: “tens of thousands of military and civilian personnel” at Fort Hood. Might be the largest military installation worldwide, but I’m not familiar with Texas. Or the military, for that matter.
Apparently Fort Hood is the primary staging area for overseas deployment.
CNN: “second gunman cornered”
@nojo: But PTSD-triggered event is normally a solo sort of thing.
Ft. Hood is between Waco and Austin. About 50 miles north of Austin going up IH-35. The closest city is Killeen, known for the massacre at a Luby’s Cafeteria that led to Texas passing concealed handgun legislation.
@nojo:
Fort Hood is the home to the 4th Mech Infantry Division and 1st Cavalry.
Where Elvis trained when he went Army.
@SanFranLefty: Precisely. Which might be why Obama headed for the Situation Room. The real one.
Russell Honore: Base residents told to turn off heating and air conditioning. Wha?
@nojo:
That’s an NBC precaution.
NBC = Nuclear/Biological/Chemical
@ManchuCandidate: I’m very impressed with the Stinque Resident Experts.
Reasoning for Obama going to SitRoom: Now that it’s a demonstrable conspiracy (two gunmen confirmed), you have to ask whether other bases are in play. Freakishly reminiscent of 9/11.
I have been watching the live feed of KCEN via MSNBC and I had to turn it off. I’m sorry, but unless there’s new information, I don’t want to here anchors’ condolences (as sincere as they might be) and talking about bullshit and rambling on to fill airtime.
Kay Bailey Hutchison: Shooters wearing military uniforms, unconfirmed whether they’re actually soldiers; she was told 30 wounded. (Moi: But would that combine killed and wounded?)
@nojo: Websites for Austin teevee stations are saying more than 20 wounded on top of the seven confirmed deaths.
@rptrcub: I’m (obviously) monitoring CNN and posting updates.
Hutchison: Shooting happened in building where soldiers were filling out paperwork for deployment to Iraq and Afghanistan.
CNN: “Up to 9 people dead,” confirming up to 30 wounded.
@nojo: They were happening at two different spots, though, which makes me more paranoid. Other location was the sports arena on base.
UPDATE: Make that three locations according to the Waco teevee station website, with a confirmed report of a shooting also at the PX. So either they were sprinting around that base like mad, or there really were three of them at three spots simultaneously.
@SanFranLefty: Perhaps three, including the PX.
Possibly related: Today is Guy Fawkes Day, beloved of V for Vendetta crackpots.
Wolf to local source: “What’s it like being in lockdown?”
Lemme tell ya: Growing up, an elderly couple were murdered in their home one afternoon. Police had all of South Eugene on lockdown while the manhunt continued, and my mom was calling home every few minutes from her office to make sure I had the doors locked.
CNN: 9 dead now confirmed.
@nojo:
Should have replied:
“What is it like to be intellectually bitchslapped on Jeopardy by Andy Ritcher?”
KXAN-TV showing helicopter shot of base. Not sure you want choppers hanging around right now.
12 dead now confirmed, 1 gunman killed.
Other two gunmen are in custody.
Base official: Both shooters were soldiers; all casualties at readiness facility.
@SanFranLefty: Austin’s well known for a little massacre of its own, and what with your occasional dragging and lethal injection, its just a pretty death-y place all around.
@Jamie Sommers: Which makes three conspirators confirmed, all soldiers.
(Reference note: Seven Days in May is set at Fort Bliss, not Fort Hood.)
This is terrorism, sorry to have to jump to conclusions, these were suicide missions, thats rare among right wing terrorists, three individuals, coordinated, but not together, nope, thats not domestic tactics. Somewhere as we speak, Cheney is lurching up to a podium to say its all onnacounta we ain’t torturing enough lately.
Oh, I forgot today’s the big NA summit with the Unicorn.
@Prommie: Not today please.
@Prommie: All three suspects are U.S. soldiers.
@nojo: That is very very strange, then. Its not normal, ya know?
@Prommie: Well, no, it’s not normal for a premeditated mass murder to occur at a U.S. military base.
But this is breaking news, and we have to limit suppositions to confirmed facts. There will be plenty of time later to break out the vituperation.
One of their names is Malik Hassan. Shooter, I mean.
Military spokesman: Killed shooter used two handguns; cannot confirm whether the two others arrested opened fire.
@Prommie: Uh oh.
@Prommie: What’s the source for that? And yes, oh fuck.
@nojo: The vast majority of mass murderers of the normal domestic variety act alone. Especially this variety, a suicide attack, no intention of escaping. Columbine and the sniper in virginia are the only exceptions I can think of.
Vituperation? Hey, its the sad fact, the GOP was literally praying for a terror attack before the election last year, and they would love it if thats what this is.
You have something against speculation? As if every single one of us isn’t going through scenarios in our minds, sluething, as it were, trying to find a scenario that fits with the few known facts, so that we can understand it? Thats all, I am just trying to understand it.
@nojo: ABC TV, but I got it hearsay.
@Prommie: CNN not mentioning the name, but cautioning against speculating about the motive. Which makes me wonder — if the second-hand ABC report is true — whether CNN is withholding the name.
@Prommie: Yes, I’m thinking through the possibilities. (And envisioning tonight’s very ugly WND headline.) But I don’t want to speculate even in the comments until more facts are confirmed.
Attacking an army base full of likely-armed soldiers seems like a silly plan. But what do I know of these things?
@IanJ: The soldiers are not armed, by design, only the military police.
@nojo: MSNBC just gave the same name. The wingnuts will be on full spin cycle.
@blogenfreude: CNN also confirms, citing “local law-enforcement source.”
@nojo: Major? Holy fuck.
Curious unconfirmed comment at Xbox gaming board:
“Maj. Malik Hasan, originally from VA, a convert to Islam who was apparently deployed at some point to Iraq.”
Hard to Google background info, since there’s another Malik Hasan who’s a “Pueblo doctor who built QualMed Health Inc. into one of the largest health-maintenance organizations (HMOs) in the nation.”
@blogenfreude: @SanFranLefty: Ah, thanks for correcting my knowledge of Army procedures. The shooters’ plan seems less crazy now. Still crazy, and I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around what kind of message is intended. Of course, it may have been no message at all, just a Full Metal Jacket style freakout.
@IanJ: Being a military brat has some usefulness, I guess. Sen. Kay Baby Hutchison said that military sources told her that he was about to be deployed to Iraq again.
It’s the other two suspects that are confusing me.
@IanJ: And just for general background, the base deals with a fair number of PTSD cases. But the few confirmed facts leave speculation all over the map.
@SanFranLefty: Yeah. I thought officers were the fragees, not fraggers.
Ft. Hood has had more casualties in Iraq than any other sending base.
@IanJ: The gunman was apparently killed by local police officers who worked at the base on contract. One of the cops is among the dead.
KB Hutchinson told Tweety that Hassan was mad about being deployed to Iraq and he was not pleased.
Ah, God, terrible.
@blogenfreude: Sounds like CNN’s behind everybody today. If you can’t even trust them for breaking news, all is lost.
AP, via CNN: Major Hasan was “mental-health professional.”
This makes the Michele Bachman protests seem all the more inane and petty.
@nojo: I dunno what this means. Bachmann and the Adkisson Brigades are going to be occupying Congress demanding that everyone with an unAmerican arrangement of vowels and consonants have to be deported and Obama executed for giving encouragement to his islamofascist fellow traveler Hasan?
@nojo:
maybe its just me but this really seem like something at the beginning of a Graham Greene story that seems to be one thing but turns out to be something completely different.
I wonder if we will ever really know what it was.
@SanFranLefty: They’ll claim it makes it more relevant since the central demand of their protests is the removal of the islamofascist from the White House – ever more important now as he was probably directing Hasan’s attack.
I saw a bunch of Bachman nutters were arrested in Lieberturds office.
wonder what they were doing, celebrating?
Nah, that was Code Pink. The only protesters that were arrested today were liberals.
Imagine that.
@Tommmcatt is hunkered down in the trenches:
silly me
good on code pink
Via CNN, Virginia board of medicine confirms name — Nidal Malik Hasan, reversing the first and middle — which lends credence to the unconfirmed comment about Hasan being a convert. In which case, is Hasan his birth name?
@Capt Howdy: I think you’re spot-on with the Greene angle — this could still develop in any number of directions.
Is it possible that these two guys in custody were firing trying to stop him, and they are holdibg off on an announcement until they investigate fully?
@nojo: This guy was a shrink? Do we know where he trained?
@nojo:
really
three soldiers just go ape shit for no reason?
Air America is reporting that the dead shooter is a Major.
Wow. That’s like a departmental VP going nuts and shooting people, isn’t it?
@Tommmcatt is hunkered down in the trenches:
saw that
and a “mental health professional”
@Capt Howdy: Cf. Apocalypse Now. Sure it’s a movie, but vets said it came damn close.
And here’s what the very busy Virginia Board of Medicine has on Hasan — info last updated 10/13/2009:
• Primary Practice Address: Darnall Army Medical Center, Ft. Hood
• License issued: July 2005
• Years in Active Clinical Practice Inside US/Canada: Less than 1 year
• Education:
Grad School: Uniformed Services University Of The Health Sciences F. Edward Herbert School Of Medicine – Bethesda MD
Year Completed: 2003
Psychiatry
WRAMC
Washington, DC USA
Year Residency Completed: 2007
Disaster and Preventive Psychiatry
USUHS/WRAMC
Bethesda, MD USA
Year Fellowship Completed: 2009
• Recognized by the American Board of Medical Specialties, Bureau of Osteopathic Specialists and Boards of Certification, the American Board of Multiple Specialties in Podiatry, or Council on Podiatric Medical Education.
• Self-Designated Practice Areas: Psychiatry
@Dodgerblue: He worked at Walter Reed according to CNN. In addition to what he probably saw overseas, imagine the amount of secondary trauma and compassion fatigue he was carrying around.
@Tommmcatt is hunkered down in the trenches: It’s possibly they didn’t even fire a weapon. The base commander just called them suspects in his earlier presser and said they were “involved somehow”. They seem to be very cautious about saying anything so soon.
Not that that’s going to stop the media anyhow.
I want your views – I am on the fence – is this more blood on George W. Bush’s hands?
@blogenfreude: It’s just sad.
Can’t it just be sad? Even for a day?
Does it have to be an instant mark in an endless partisan tally?
@Jamie Sommers: We can wait. I could go on and on about how he broke the military, but I wanted to see what everyone else thinks.
@blogenfreude: Same response I gave to Prommie: Can’t draw conclusions until we have more confirmed facts. We still don’t know which direction this is going.
@blogenfreude: And besides, I’d rather hold back and watch wingnuts jump the shark on this.
@blogenfreude I’m with Sister Jamie Sommers, it’s all just really sad and terrible. I hope that they will postpone the deployment of the guys that were on their way – what I saw said they were scheduled to deploy this weekend or Monday.
Apparently the Readiness Center is next to the sports field, not a few buildings away as earlier reported. That makes sense of initial reports. Except for the PX.
And now, Lou Dobbs. Guess I’ll stick with CNN to see whether he gets unhinged.
The other two suspects have been released, according to the Austin fishwrap.
@SanFranLefty: Had to do a hack chore, but I think I heard they were reclassified as “persons of interest.” So we may be back to a single whackjob, whatever his rank.
And in an odd twist of fate, as the killings were occurring, two veterans groups (one from Austin, the other from SF), were meeting with Senate Armed Services staff on the need for increased mental health services for returning soldiers.
@SanFranLefty: Heard from Tweety that there’s a third suspect is custody … I’m not sure whether to root for another shooter or not …..
@blogenfreude: Lou is bringing up “three or four tours of duty” — which is still more than I’m comfy speculating in this case (anybody can go off for any reason), but the general point that Shrub fucked the military holds true.
@blogenfreude: CNN saying one still in custody, but I’m unclear whether he’s a suspect.
Oh boy, I got to add a picture of the allegedly-guilty shrink. Who, disturbingly, looks a bit like my shrink. [[shudder]]
@nojo: NPR says the shootings occured during a graduation exercise at the base.
And in other veterans’ related news, Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Oklafuckapigastan) identified as the senator holding up several veterans’ benefits bills to protest the stimulus spending packages.
WND: “Fort Hood triggerman: Muslim psychiatrist”
In other relevant news, all 39-year-olds are terrorism suspects.
It’s unfortunate that the media will jump on the shooter being (presumably) moslem to ignore the real issues here. October was another record month for suicides in the military.
As for Tom Coburn, I read that report earlier today and phoned his office to ask why he hates American veterans so much.
CNN: Hasan “U.S. citizen of Jordanian descent.” Cannot confirm birthplace.
Just got out of my meeting when I heard the news. Went to Stinque immediately upon getting home for news and analysis.
And poop jokes. Don’t forget the poop jokes, very important.
@redmanlaw: I’ve been waiting for you to show up because you are my source for all information weapons-related. Are there really automatic handguns that hold so much ammo that he could pick off that many people without reloading? I’m not trying to be gruesome, I’m just trying to get an idea of how quickly things went down.
Just an FYI, most military doctors become O-4s when they finish their residencies/pass their boards. He might not have been in that long. It takes regular officers much longer to reach that rank.
@SanFranLefty: Can get larger (illegal?) clips.
@JNOV: Makes me wish I’d joined the Navy and gone to medical school. I’d have saved a few lives, I think.
@blogenfreude: Year for year commitment — not a bad deal. Even if you don’t go to the USUHS.
By the way, I’ve heard no confirmation that Hasan is Muslim. He may very well have been a Christian. Or an athiest.
(Update: Cousin tells Fox he was Muslim. For the record.)
@JNOV: too late now … in my forties, not telling you where …
@JNOV: And you’re a captain as soon as you graduate from med school, or at least that’s what happened for an ex who graduated from USUHS.
@SanFranLefty: Right.
ADD: It’s the college graduates with vague degrees that end up in the infantry (or on ships) and start off as Ensigns (AKA Butter Sticks in Navy and Coast Guard) or as 2nd Louies in the Army and MC. They usually get promoted within a year. Butter Sticks get no respect.
@blogenfreude: I threatened Mr. SFL the other night that I was thinking about applying to medical school once I pay off the law school loans. The look of horror on his face ended that conversation.
@SanFranLefty: Captain is Army/AF/MC and the Navy equivalent is Lieutenant.
ADD: Navy Capt = Colonel
@SanFranLefty: Those bastards practice age discrimination at med schools. They look sideways at applicants over 30.
@redmanlaw: @SanFranLefty: That’s what I was wondering. 42 other people (according to the latest count of dead and wounded) were hit by bullets, and the shooter supposedly had 2 “handguns.” What do they classify as a hand gun that has that kind of ammo capacity? Because you got to figure some shots went wild.
(Sorry if this seems insensitive or morbid–really just trying to understand how this could physically happen.)
@Mistress Cynica: They sell banana clips that can fit a handgun and hold over twenty bullets — I think up to 50.
@Mistress Cynica: Quite relevant, alas. We still don’t really know whether one dude flipped, or two dudes were planning something for reasons still to be disclosed.
Local press conference…
Single shooter. NOT KILLED. In custody, and in stable condition.
@nojo: Heard that just now – trial should be teh circus maximus.
@nojo: Wha???
Graduation ceremony was 50 meters away, not affected by events.
@nojo: these “facts” seem to be evolving rapidly.
Wow. Just wow. Does the Army have the death penalty? I think so…
One pistol was semi-automatic.
@Dodgerblue: That’s the nature of breaking news. The local press conference right now is being given by Gen. Cone.
Cone: Evidence “does not suggest” terrorism.
Military death penalty site.
Ugh they’re gonna have to drag Rick Perry away from his hairdresser’s long enough to shed some crocodile tears.
Note to self: don’t turn on the TV tonight.
@JNOV: there is a federal death penalty.
@Dodgerblue: Right, but he’s probs going to be tried under the UCMJ.
ADD: In military court.
@JNOV: Two civilians killed, I think. Even if it happened on base, does that mean a separate civil trial?
@nojo: I’m not sure — it depends on if the military and the civilians decide to have a pissing contest. My guess is the military can cede jurisdiction, but the JAG and the DA will discuss who has a better chance of conviction and whose punishment would be most severe/carried out most swiftly. The military doesn’t fuck around. And, technically, he’s govt property.
ADD: The UCMJ applies to military officers/enlisted who harm civilians, too. There’s NJP (non-judicial punishment) and judicial punishment. Most of the stuff falls under NJP. In the Navy it’s called “Captain’s Mast.” People can be placed on restriction, forced labor outside of their normal duties, lose rank, lose pay, and I *think* they can even be placed in the brig for a certain period of time through NJP.
In regards to the handguns, although you can get massive clips for some handguns, they’re unusual, and illegal in some places (probably not illegal in Texas, though). Much more likely is that he reloaded a couple times, which he would have time to do if the MPs weren’t around. Reloading, to a practiced hand, takes a second or two, assuming you’ve got spare magazines prepped (which I would, if I were planning a shooting spree).
Okay, I was wrong, based on initial reports that there was more than one shooter, shooting in more than one location. Its now looking much more like they rounded up a couple of others just to make sure there wasn’t a conspiracy, it could be because they were armed and tried defending, it could also be because they were the other muslims on the base, and I would not condemn the army for just taking them in and talking to them a bit, in the immediate aftermath, they were very careful not to implicate them directly, and appeared to have released them fairly promptly.
Its sad, very sad, when 12 people are killed. Does that mean my curiosity dies, and I cannot wonder over the further implications? Whether or not it was terrorism is something that will affect the lives of hundreds of millions, it could tip the balance on the debate over whether we send another 100,000 of our troops to afghanistan, something that Obama is rightly resisting despite the neocon dead-enders, led by Cheney, urging, and also an apparently somewhat mutinous army high command also urging. That is something that would inevitably cause tens of thousands more deaths, though most of them will be brown people.
Those 12 people are dead, its sad, but I am much more concerned now for those still alive who could wind up dead if this ignites an escalation in afghanistan. Or, if this is a case of trauma and stress induced breakdown, it could result in increased awareness of the need for seriously addressing the trauma these troops are coming home with, and that too would save many lives.
Those are vital issues to me. What is is, and its sad, but I am so worried, concerned, about what could result, how many more dead, how much more strength could be given to bad policy proposals, like continuing torture, and escalating afghanistan, its not political gamesmanship I am playing, its very real, very real, painful concern and worry that it not be something which causes more harm.
I am relieved now that it seems it will be something which will, rather than increase support for more war, instead, may increase awareness of the terrible damage the war is doing to the soldiers who are fighting it, those who are not physicall injured, but instead psychically damaged in horrible ways.
During Vietnam, there was one very humanitarian rule in effect; noone had to serve more than one 365 day tour. 354 days and a wakeup (the last day, when you wake up in Vietnam, and leave. If you survived, you never had to go back.
In this war, we have kids going for 14 months, coming home, and being sent out for another 14 months, 3 and 4 times. Some of them have been fighting longer than anyone in WWI and WWII. Its wrong.
@IanJ: Trained shooter, enclosed space, element of surprise.
Plus, if I heard correctly, the pistols weren’t military-issue. Yet another angle we’ll be hearing more about.
I am just saying, I am not heartless. I feel pain at those deaths. I also feel pain when I hear that predator drones killed 40 people in Waziristan, people caught up in an ideology that is all they know of the world from birth, people who have their wives and kids with them, too, in their camps. The bombs don’t know the difference.
Our idea of “justice” is insane and evil, we had 3,000 die in 9-11, so we killed 300,000 people in Iraq, at a conservative estimate.
I was, am, frantic to know whether this was an attack, which would, in all likelihood, result in another 100 to 1 “just” response (by the arithmetic of the neocons) or a tragic case of combat stress, which just might result in increased awareness of the horrible toll that more fighting and more war will continue to cause, and thus shift the balance against military approaches to the terrorism situation.
@Promnight: In a chaotic situation, you round up folks identified as suspects by eyewitnesses, then straighten out the stories. (I think they were running out the door or something, and were mistaken as participants.)
But this is why we wait for the facts to settle down before extrapolating, especially in a quickly breaking story. (And it was Gen. Cone who first reported the shooter was dead, according to McClatchy — so even “confirmed” facts can be provisional.) We don’t yet even know whether PTSD was involved — Hasan may been have a military shrink, but his first overseas deployment wasn’t until later this month.
Are you wrong to consider implications? No, of course not. We all do. But speculating publicly while the story is still evolving — getting ahead of the known facts — sheds little light.
What does shed light is exploring the universe of possibility at a given moment, based on what’s known. And it makes a huge difference whether there’s a lone gunman or conspiracy involved. But such things need to be expressed as provisional, pending further developments.
Its now reported that the shooter is alive, and also, that he was shot and disabled by one of the first respoders, a female police officer, who was herself shot in the effort. Am I wrong to think, that I am glad that there is a woman who is the hero here, whose actions will be a bold answer to those who say women should not serve in combat, that they should not be cops? Thats is my reaction.
@Promnight: My reaction too. I was watching Rachel at the gym and didn’t understand why they were going on and on about her being a woman. Mr. SFL pointed out to me that so many people don’t think women should be cops or soldiers. Still unclear if she is a M.P. or Kileen Police Dept.
With regard to what you were saying about shedding a light on PTSD, secondary trauma is a very real event for shrinks, and others in the helping professions (i.e. social workers, legal aid attorneys). It can lead to compassion fatigue and cynicism, or anger and rage. I should know, I’ve experienced it myself. Unfortunately any sign of asking for help is seen as a weakness in the military. The guy on Rachel’s show who wrote the Rolling Stone article on the Fort Carson killings was interesting.
Coincidentally, last Sunday was Mad Men’s inevitable JFK episode. (No spoilers — they’ve been hinting at it all season.) Besides the well-known Walter footage, they also dusted off the ongoing CBS and NBC coverage from the archives.
And there you see some classic television journalism, reporting scattered facts as they become available, being careful to cite sources, and waiting for the AP bulletin before calling it. (The AP used to be God.)
Here, we still don’t know enough to draw conclusions — for all we know, Hasan was a disturbed Army shrink and a Muslim radical. Or neither. We may yet learn that a girlfriend broke up with him last night.
@nojo: An interesting thought I saw on DU, that his torment, may not have been so much traumatic, as moral. In treating returning soldiers for their psychic trauma, how often did he hear of atrocities they witnessed, or committed, against our “enemies” in Iraq and Afghanistan? How much torment would that cause him, as a person of middle eastern birth, at the idea that in 3 weeks he was being sent there to take part in this slaughter? Even were he, as is most likely, serving in good faith, sincerely serving his new country, would he not be just naturally be more sensitive to it, more torn, than most? On purely moral, not ideological, grounds?
War produces so many casualties, even for the “victors,” how many boys, average yokels, who wanted to go and be patriotic, come home more racist than before, and desensitized to death and violence, morally damaged, violent, angry? How many went wanting to serve their country, who were deeply twisted by seeing the carnage, and suffering deep moral conflict and confusion? And thats the deep psychic, moral damage, even more common is the traumatic stress on everyone who ever goes under fire. Its scary when people shoot at you. Very.
I once was tromping through a wildlife preserve here in NJ, thats the word our DEP uses for a hunting area. I heard shooting far in the distance, wasn’t too worried, but then I felt, and heard, a bullet whiz by my head. I heard a buzzing sound, i think it was tumbling, it went “whirr.” I felt the shockwave, a puff of air that moved my hair.
Can you imagine that happening a hundred times an hour, like a swarm of bees all around you?
1) The massacre will be used as an excuse by the Repukelicans to demand an escalation of the war against Afghanistan.
2) The massacre will be used as an excuse by the Demoncrats to demand an escalation of the war against Afghanistan.
@Promnight: Not his “new” country. According to WaPo, born and raised in Arlington, Virginia.
It’s rare when the majority of our political leaders as well as our nation’s journalists stenographer-propagandists agree, but they all agree on one thing: This country needs more wars.
@Mistress Cynica, Lefty: Commonly available handguns, including the military issue Beretta M9 (military version of the Beretta Model 92) and my Glock 19 , come with magazines that can hold up to 15 rounds of 9 mm ammo.* Three mags plus one in the gun = 60 rounds. As my esteemed colleague Ian J says, you can reload in a couple of seconds.
Another important consideration is the type of ammo used. Military ammo uses a non-expanding full metal jacket “ball” bullet that is not noted for stopping power, while one can head down to the local sporting goods store for expanding hollow point ammo that is designed to to create a larger “wound channel” to enhance trauma upon being hit. That is generally the load used for personal defense and law enforcement purposes.
Ridiculous looking 30 round mags can be purchased for the Glock, maybe for the Beretta, can be had by looking around a little.
*ADD: Assept in Cali, which fascistically limits mag sizes to 10 rounds.
@Promnight: Lou was certainly playing up the PTSD angle, as well as the multiple tours — and good for Lou, since I feared he’d go all xenophobe on it.
And whether or not that proves to be at the root of this, it’s an important issue to raise. We talk about sending tens of thousands more troops to Afghanistan, which is serious enough in itself. But where are they coming from? How many times have they rotated already?
I actually dusted off Catch-22 this afternoon, thinking I’d pull a passage about the bombing raids being continually increased. And I may pull it yet, but it’s tiny print in a big book.
Speaking of Things We Don’t Know…
Investigators probing the death of a Kentucky census worker found hanging from a tree with the word “fed” scrawled on his chest increasingly doubt he was killed because of his government job and are pursuing the possibility he committed suicide, law enforcement officials told The Associated Press.
Two officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the case, said no final conclusions have been made in the case. In recent weeks, however, investigators have grown more skeptical that 51-year-old Bill Sparkman died at the hands of someone angry at the federal government.
The officials said investigators continue to look closely at suicide as a possible cause of Sparkman’s death for a number of reasons. There were no defensive wounds on Sparkman’s body, and while his hands were bound with duct-tape, they were still somewhat mobile, suggesting he could have manipulated the rope, the officials said.
I may have been days late calling Balloon Boy, but I still prefer being cautious about what everybody knows.
@nojo: Well, in the 1996 Simon & Schuster reprint paperback on Amazon, there’s a passage around pp. 224-25 about going from 60 to 70 to 80 missions, and there a bit on p. 495 where Yossarian says, “It’s your fault for increasing the number of missions” and Col. Korn says, “No, it’s your fault for refusing to fly them.”
Just use the Search Inside This Book feature with the term “number of missions”.
Shooter: “I heart suicide bombers.”
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/11/feds-eyed-ft-hood-killer-for-posts-praising-suicide-bombers/
@redmanlaw: And Mass.
@redmanlaw: And this article so clearly shows why we need a draft in this country. No exceptions. Doesn’t matter if you’ve got an ass-zit, you’re in business school, or you’re a girl.
This shit needs to end. It’s unacceptable that our soldiers are spending more time in Iraq than any GI spent in France in WWII. I know too many poor black and brown kids (aka former clients) going in the military, and when I go out and see smug 20 something frat boy/sorority girl types, I increasingly want to scream at them about what they’re doing for this country.
This war will end when those of you who have 20-something kids are facing the specter of them going to Falluja instead of grad school.
@SanFranLefty: Seriously.
@SanFranLefty: And I’ll add, the way my “kids” have their emotions managed, is that the Army docs prescribe a shitload of psychotropic meds for them to numb or sedate them, and then tell them that when they need to be amped, to go nuts on the energy drinks, coffee, No-Doze, and cigarettes. I visited Fort Carson recently and was horrified by the amount of wacky energy drinks being slammed down every ten minutes by the kids. I was told that was the only way to keep the anti-psychotic and anti-depressants from making them sleep.
So imagine, if you can, being the shrink who is having to spend all day prescribing all these intense sedatives for the soldiers to keep the demons away.
@redmanlaw: Wired (not unreasonably) cherrypicks. Here’s the entire “NidalHasan” post:
There was a grenade thrown amongs a group of American soldiers. One of the soldiers, feeling that it was to late for everyone to flee jumped on the grave with the intention of saving his comrades. Indeed he saved them. He inentionally took his life (suicide) for a noble cause i.e. saving the lives of his soldier. To say that this soldier committed suicide is inappropriate. Its more appropriate to say he is a brave hero that sacrificed his life for a more noble cause. Scholars have paralled this to suicide bombers whose intention, by sacrificing their lives, is to help save Muslims by killing enemy soldiers. If one suicide bomber can kill 100 enemy soldiers because they were caught off guard that would be considered a strategic victory. Their intention is not to die because of some despair. The same can be said for the Kamikazees in Japan. They died (via crashing their planes into ships) to kill the enemies for the homeland. You can call them crazy i you want but their act was not one of suicide that is despised by Islam. So the scholars main point is that “IT SEEMS AS THOUGH YOUR INTENTION IS THE MAIN ISSUE” and Allah (SWT) knows best.
Is that “Praising Suicide Bombers”, as Wired headlines? Or understanding them, which wouldn’t be unusual for a shrink? Or clarifying Islam?
It may very well be a damning post. But it’s unclear to me.
@nojo: Sounds like a shrink to me.
@SanFranLefty: Bonus points to anyone who ties a Christian mass-murderer to Christ’s suicide sacrifice.
@SanFranLefty: And remember how Maher was reamed for suggesting the 9/11 terrorists weren’t cowards? How it was unpatriotic to even attempt to understand motivation? How everyone was dismissive of the suggestion that perhaps we should learn a little about the Arab world before blasting them off the face of the Earth?
The neocons were right about one thing: We’ve created our own reality.
@nojo: His dad? (Let’s ignore the Trinity thing.)
@SanFranLefty: They’re not human anymore. They’re chemically managed organisms conditioned to kill and break things on command.
The high command and our congresspukes certainly seem to see it that way. They’ve basically been ordering our troops to run up-hill into machine gun fire for years now.
And in much the same way that I question the mental health of gays that join the military, that goes double for Mooslums that sign up given that large pluralities, if not the majority, of AmeriKKKans via our foreign wars as crusades to exterminate the people who share their religion and/or skin color.
Srsly. What. The. Frak?
Quoi est le frak?
@SanFranLefty: Sounds like a shrink to me.
Seconded. He sounds pretty reasonable in that post. I wouldn’t have trouble creating a similar explanation, given time to consider the issue properly.
@Original Andrew: Unfortunately the remaining Muslims and/or Arabs in the military will be getting even more shit after this. Especially since the media is reporting he was screaming “Allahu akbar” as he was shooting.
like reds, i looked forward to what say the stinquers on this, and you never disappoint.
how many times have i told you shrinks are barking mad? i have long basis for comparison and analysis. then put him in Hood for a while, combustible. like our world.
and lefty’s comment about ALL kids having to do military service i heartily agree with. that, or none at all. something the israeli’s do right.
we are at war…with our own country, i mean corporation.
Benedick • Raise a cup to the GOP
Dodgerblue • Raise a cup to the GOP
mellbell • Raise a cup to the GOP Dodgerblue • Florence Green, 1901-2012 Benedick • Raise a cup to the GOP
nojo • Occupy Wins nojo • Occupy Wins mellbell • Florence Green, 1901-2012
Marcel Parcells • Occupy Wins
jwmcsame • Raise a cup to the GOP
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3:45 pm • Thursday • November 5, 2009
Waco? Shit.